Tuesday, November 23, 2010

Personal Top 30 List - Kevin

Well, it's time to kick off our prospect coverage. What we're going to do is give you our personal top 30 lists in separate posts, and then do one combining our lists at the end. We'll start off with my list, and then Jake and Doug will have theirs posted soon. Next week we'll also begin posting profiles on our top 15 hitters, and then the top 15 pitchers after that's taken care of. Here's my list, with explanation for rankings at the bottom:

1. RHP Jeremy Hellickson
2. LHP Matt Moore
3. OF Desmond Jennings
4. LHP Alex Torres
5. RHP Alex Cobb
6. RHP Alex Colome
7. LHP Jake McGee
8. OF Josh Sale
9. RHP Joe Cruz
10. RHP Nick Barnese

11. RHP Jake Thompson
12. RHP Wilking Rodriguez
13. C Justin O'Conner
14. C Luke Bailey
15. OF Drew Vettleson
16. IF Tim Beckham
17. OF Ty Morrison
18. IF Derek Dietrich
19. LHP Enny Romero
20. IF Ryan Brett

21. RHP Scott Shuman
22. IF Hector Guevara
23. OF Todd Glaesmann
24. IF Tyler Bortnick
25. RHP Albert Suarez
26. RHP Jesse Hahn
27. LHP Kyle Lobstein
28. RHP Zach Quate
29. IF Cesar Perez
30. LHP Braulio Lara

The Top Three: I talked about these guys a little bit in an earlier post, but Jeremy Hellickson, Matt Moore, and Desmond Jennings are essentially a cut above everyone else. Hellickson gets the easy nod for #1 simply because of his long track record of success in the minors plus how good he looked in the majors in 2010. Moore places second for me simply because of his ceiling. I feel he can truly become a superstar pitcher if his second-half control improvements are for real. His K/9 hasn't wavered from the upper-12's, and if you include his playoff appearances, it was over 13. Jennings is obviously an exciting major league-ready talent, but I think 2010 put a damper on what his ultimate ceiling is. Injuries have been a real problem for him, and while it's not entirely alarming, it's noteworthy.

Four Through Seven: I had said earlier that I didn't have Jake McGee on the same level as Alex troika of Torres, Cobb, and Colome, but I've changed my mind. While I still ranked McGee at #7, it's a lot closer than I thought it would be, and I thought about moving him up several times. Torres comes in at #4 for me because his stuff is a tick above the others'. Control is still a weakness at times for him, but his 4.4 BB/9 in 2010 was an improvement over 2009's 4.9 number. He's also excelled in the Venezuelan Winter League, striking out 30 and walking 6 in 27.2 innings as of this post.

Cobb has been hit-or-miss in the Arizona Fall League, finishing with a 6.12 ERA despite striking out 30 in 25.0 innings and inducing more than three groundouts for every flyout. His high walk total of 14 was skewed by one bad outing where he walked 6 in 3.2 innings. He has less spectacular stuff than Torres, Colome, and McGee, but he's seen a rise in his K/9 the past two seasons as he's climbed the organizational ladder. Colome is a guy whose stuff didn't exactly match his stats in 2010. A 3.95 ERA, more than a strikeout per inning, and 45 walks in 118 innings isn't necessarily bad, but I couldn't help but expect more given his age (21) and his quality stuff. I still believe in the arm, and expect an improvement stats-wise as he moves up to the Florida State League.

McGee may have been the toughest pitcher to rank. He features either the best or second-best fastball on the list, and dominated the highest level of the minors out of the bullpen. Despite solid numbers as a starter in Montgomery, it seems like the Rays plan to use him as a reliever going forward, which limits how high I can rank him. Late-inning relievers certainly have value, and McGee could be a special one, but I'm still only luke-warm on his off-speed stuff.

Eight Through Ten: I think Josh Sale's bat is truly something special, and I thought the Astros made a mistake passing on him at #8 overall. So even without the benefit of pro experience, I'm fine with putting him in my top 10. Joseph Cruz has, in my opinion, passed 2010 rotation-mate Nick Barnese as a prospect. They both do the same sorts of things well, but Cruz at his best has a better fastball, and has posted better strikeout numbers the past two seasons. Barnese still makes the top 10, though, bolstered by his excellent 1.9 BB/9 in 2010. He's yet to make a full season's worth of starts, though.

Ten Through Fourteen: Jake Thompson was the fourth Rays draft pick in 2010, but I have him ranked above all but Sale here. Heading into the draft he was an arm strength guy who hadn't quite lived up to his billing, but he made real strides in pro ball. He made some mechanical adjustments and was dominant at times, including 11 innings in the Florida State League where he allowed only two hits. Wilking Rodriguez was another guy who I thought might have a better season statistically. It wasn't disappointing, per say, and he showed glimpses of greatness, but too often allowed a little trouble turn into a lot of trouble.

Justin O'Conner and Luke Bailey is a virtual tie. Both have similar profiles: Plus power with the tools to be plus defensively. Coming back from Tommy John surgery, Both showed more swing-and-miss than I expected, Bailey striking out 47 times in 42 games and O'Conner 46 times in 48 games with the GCL Rays. Despite the iffy debuts, I love each of their potential as catchers who can hit while providing solid defense. Neither is in imminent danger of being moved off the position.

Fifteen Through Twenty: The next three, Drew Vettleson, Tim Beckham, and Ty Morrison were tough to rank. Vettleson could be the best pure hitter of the group, and his ceiling is going to come down to how much power he can hit for. And then there's Beckham. I could write a lot about Beckham (and I will in the RaysProspect digitial guide, coming February 2011!), but for now I'll just say that he's not a bust but I absolutely expected more from him. The stride he made in plate discipline is mitigated by a still-high strikeout total, a lack of power, and mediocre reports about his tools.

Ty Morrison is a major sleeper for me. He runs very well, plays a mean center field, and showed improvement over the course of the 2010 season. He does strike out a lot, and like Beckham, it would've been nice to see improvements in the BB% department come with a drop in K%. He should develop some power, but is a top-of-the-lineup type hitter, so he'll need to continue improving his walk total, which he did each month last season.

Derek Dietrich probably won't stick at shortstop, but his left-handed bat and above-average hitting ability will allow him to carve out a spot somewhere, even if it's as a super-utility guy. Enny Romero took the Appalachian League by storm after a so-so showing in the GCL in 2009. His stuff inarguably blossomed, but I'd like to see him put up 2010-type numbers again. If he can, likely with Bowling Green, he'll be a strong top-10 contender next off-season.

It was refreshing to finally see a Rays high school draftee put up strong numbers in his debut as Ryan Brett did. He was able to produce nice power out of his 5-9/180 frame in high school, but it remains to be seen how much he can generate with wood bats. In fact, his game may flourish if he adopts a more contact/on-base approach, but it's worth seeing if he can still produce some pop.

Twenty Through Thirty: Ah, the home stretch. Scott Shuman ranks highest out of all the players who were exclusively relievers in 2010. Shuman terrorized the Midwest League with a mid-to-upper 90s fastball and slider than flashed plus. He struck out 111 in 71.2 innings, and will help ensure the Charlotte bullpen doesn't fall too far in 2011... if he's not promoted to Montgomery.

Hector Guevara and Todd Glaesmann rank above Tyler Bortnick for me despite the obviously worse stats. Glaesmann has potential for five plus tools, but his plate approach (13 walks, 70 strikeouts in 62 games) needs work. Guevara held his own as one of the youngest players in the Appy League, though his .251 batting average was somewhat empty. He showed an aptitude for making contact, striking out only 31 times in 64 games, and given how he raked in the VSL in 2009, he's a real breakout candidate.

So, for that matter, is Bortnick. Not only did he maintain his production in his full-season debut, he improved in some areas, most notably plate discipline. He walked 63 times (and only struck out 67) in 113 MWL games, while also swiping 41 bases total on the year. If he continues to produce with Charlotte in 2011, people will take notice for sure.

Albert Suarez and Jesse Hahn are both recent Tommy John surgery victims, though Suarez is expected to be ready to go on opening day while Hahn won't debut at least until the summer. When totally healthy, Hahn has the better stuff, but Suarez already showed he was "back" last year, working into the 93-94 mph range with his fastball.

Like Ryan Reid and Matt Gorgen before him, Zach Quate is going to have to prove he has enough to get hitters at the upper levels of the minors out after posting great FSL numbers. Quate's fastball is worse than Gorgen's, though his slider his better, and his delivery allows him to deceive hitters well.

Cesar Perez was a Venezuelan bonus baby who fizzled in the GCL in 2010, but he was only 17 years old. He'll still be at rookie ball in 2011, either Princeton or back in the GCL, but I expect much better results.

Braulio Lara round out the list. Despite praise for his stuff from BaseballAmerica, I'm hesitant to rank him higher because he was 21 years old in the Appy League, and his 58-25 K-BB in 66.0 innings doesn't jump off the page.


Whew. What do you guys think? Someone too high? Too low? Someone not on here that you think should've been?

54 comments:

  1. Quate has proved himself for two seasons now and was named by Tampa Bay as the Reliever of the year. He was an All Star nominee for mid and post season. Does not walk many and has a great stikeout ratio. Think you have him listed too low on the list.

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  2. I agree with the other anonymous. I feel that QUATE should be ranked higher. Also, I feel that the only reason BECKHAM is listed as a prospect is because of his draft pick # and money he was given. I'd pick BORTNICK over BECKHAM any day.

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  3. I would have to throw chris muril somewhere in there. I watched him play in bowling green this year and he has some talent for sure. I think he may have gotten promoted through the season. He was an all star if I am not mistaken.

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  4. I forgot about Chris Murrill~ he also deserved to be on the list. And Steve Vogt needs a permanent defensive position soon, cause he sure can hit....and yet, gets no recognition as a prospect.

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  5. are you fucking kidding me with wrigley not even making the top 30!!! i dont know if i can read anymore post from this site.

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  6. wow where do you get your info? you snubbed a lot of guys deserving of a top 30.

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  7. STDR,

    Who did he snub?

    Nice list BTW. For me.....

    Too High: Alex Cobb, Joe Cruz, Derek Dietrich, and Todd Glaesmann.
    Too Low: Braulio Lara, Kyle Lobstein, Enny Romero, Tim Beckham, and Jake McGee.

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  8. Kevin~ although I don't always agree with your "Top" lists, I still respect you and your right to choose. I can't believe the undeserved flack you get from some of those making comments. Shandies, let's keep the f words out of the posts, ok? They're really not necessary, and are totally uncalled for. Keep up the good work Kevin.

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  9. AAA- elliot johnson, angel chavez
    AA- nevin ashley, henry wrigley
    A+- Isaias Velasquez

    sorry about the F bomb but these guys were huge parts to their respected teams in 2010. there is just too much politics in the MLB rather then player production

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  10. Good List Kevin, my only changes would be, Mcgee above Cobb and Colome, Barnese over Cruz, Quate above Hahn because we have yet to see Hahn pitch and won't for quite some time, and I woulda moved Lobstein up a few spots. Other than that looks good. And you gave reasons for why you put a player where. People need to understand that these are just opinions. Wrigley and Vogt were kinda overraged for their leagues and EJohnson and Chavez are kinda of like AAAA players and nothing more than utility in the majors.Abd they are both to old to be prospects.

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  11. Baseball is a game of opinion. Many great players didn't make your top 30, but it is what it is, a game of opinion.

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  12. I am gonna have to throw Wrigley and Vogt into the mix.

    Wrigley has been the hot bat for the Stone Crabs. He came to Charlotte at the end of 2009 and stepped right into the lineup without missing a beat. During the offseason, he worked on his game and came back better in 2010, leading the Stone Crabs in homers and helped lead them to a first half championship. He was promoted just after the first half where the production continued unlike some who were promoted before him. He did slump towards the end of the season, but all and all had a great year and deserves ranking on the list.

    Vogt won the FSL batting title in 2010 and his consistancy was key to the Charlotte offense. His production continued well into Colombia where he continues to drop bombs. Stephen is a great team leader and he the ability to play multiple position is key. He missed most of the 2009 season due to injury but more then made up for it.

    But all and all it was a great list. The depth in the farm system is amazing. Most clubs would love to be in the position of the Rays. With so much talent, it is hard to narrow down to 30.

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  13. Honestly Shandies, why exactly is Henry Wrigley deserving of a spot? As a 23-year old (not terribly old but not young for the level) he hit well, but didn't tear the cover off the ball. For a 14th-round pick who had never posted an OPS over .680 in his career, it's going to take a heck of a lot more than one pretty good half-season to change my mind. Between Charlotte and Montgomery, his line was .270/.312/.457. What exactly is exciting about that? Add in a .551 OPS in the Arizona Fall league and it's even worse.

    He had a nice season. And to me, that's all it was. Wrigley is exactly the kind of player that needs to prove he can repeat this type of year. And he simply didn't put up good numbers in AA and Arizona. Prospect lists aren't just a regurgitation of which players had the best seasons.

    As for the other names you mentioned:
    Elliot Johnson: He has a decent argument. John Jaso had a bit of a similar profile last off-season (older guy, up-the-middle position, etc) and I left him off, which was obviously a mistake. We'll see.

    Angel Chavez is 29 years old, and that's simply too old. Plus his stats frankly aren't that great.

    Nevin Ashley: Outside of his 2009 AFL stint, he just hasn't hit enough to project as an everyday player in the majors. His defensive skills give him potential as a backup, but that's about it.

    Isaias Velasquez: Nice speed, but a .713 OPS isn't all that impressive.

    The point of this list is that it's just my opinion. Obviously we have different ways of analyzing prospects, and that's fine. I encourage disagreements in the comments section, as long as we can all keep it civil.

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  14. Stephen Vogt has pretty much raked everywhere he's been, I just need to see him handle the catcher position for an entire year while continuing to hit well. His isolated discipline isn't great, as even with a .345 BA his OBP was under .400, but that's okay for a catcher. If he hits in the .290 range he's probably looking at a .330 OBP. And he'll probably need to turn more doubles into home runs.

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  15. Addressing some other comments...

    Quate: It really does come down to "let me see it at AA." Matt Gorgen and Ryan Reid have posted cartoon numbers at high-A, like Quate did this year, only to see their ratios slip at AA. Obviously Quate is a different guy, so I'm not saying "he definitely won't be as good at AA" but for a guy with his profile, I'd like to see AA data.

    Murrill: He's a plus runner and that seems to be it, to me. For college picks that late in the draft, they really need to tear the cover off the ball to stand out for me. And even that's sometimes not enough, like with Stephen Vogt. There are just too many examples of guys tearing it up in low and high-A and then struggling in Double-A and Triple-A. And really, Murrill's .645 OPS between BG and CHA in 2010 wasn't "tearing it up" to begin with.

    Alex Cobb: He's just one of "my guys" who I like better than everyone. His K/BB was fantastic.

    Jesse Hahn: I can see the argument for moving him down/off the list, because even if he pitches he likely won't be all the way back, so his stock won't shoot up. But he was a first round-type talent before his injury.

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  16. im sick of the age argument. thats a cop out. take andres torres of the championship giants. the guy cam into the league at age 30-32 and raked. speed is what the team needs so valasgez is a high prospect in my eyes. wrigley belted 20+ home runs, to me that shows plenty of power and production. vogt has showed plenty of stuff worthy of being top 30. heres the thing you take a kid like wrigley whos been playin for five years now, if he would have went to a four year college this past season would have been his first in the minors. um everyone of yall would have demaned him in the majors with those numbers

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  17. 20 RBIs in the fall league against top pitching prospect plus back to back grand slams. who was the last pro to do that? exactly. when it comes down to it, production wins championships. and being promoted is like being traded, you gotta learn all new pitchers. takes time to adjust. i just dont like it when a list is put together full of high school guys who havent proven value to the club at all yet. to early to throw names out like that

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  18. Why are players on this list if they haven't even played yet? For instance, Sale. I am sure he is a high prospect being in the 1st round, but if they haven't played yet to prove themselves why include them on the list? Why not just list those who have actually played?
    And why list those who are already known to be going back to the Bigs?

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  19. Production is very important, but I think you're looking in the wrong places for it. The grand slams in Arizona are great, but in 82 at bats he hit .183 with an ugly 3 walks/24 strikeouts. Even during the season with his 20 HRs he had a .312 OBP. That's just not good. In the majors, .312 was good for 125th out of 149 qualified players. And I'd wager that Wrigley can't carbon-copy his high-A/double-A numbers to the majors.

    Plus you take into account that he hadn't really hit before this season. Wrigley has played for five years, but he did go to a JuCo for a year, so technically this would've been his second year.

    But look at the FSL OPS leaders by year:

    2005: Matt Kemp, Andy Wilson, Danilo Sanchez, Derek Nicholson, Anthony Ragliani, Brent Clevlen, Adam Lind, Justin Christian, Eric Arnold, Scott Moore

    Out of those, only Matt Kemp and Adam Lind are name guys. Kemp was also 20 years old that year (and his OPS was higher than Wrigley's).

    2006: Corey Coles, Brandon Florence, Hernan Iribarren, Robinzon Diaz, Sam Fuld, Cody Ehlers, Chris Robinson, Brandon Roberts, Brock Peterson, Grant Psomas.

    I'm pretty sure Sam Fuld is the only guy who has gotten MLB at-bats from that group.

    The age argument ISN'T a cop-out. It's demonstrable fact that the FSL (and all minor leagues) historically have players who put up good stats in the league and don't make the majors.

    Andres Torres is the exception to that rule. It's disingenuous to point to the exception and say "See? You're wrong!" For every Andres Torres there's probably 50 guys who didn't have that "something" click.

    Stats ultimately don't matter as much in the minor leagues. If they were all that matters then I would just give you the Rays organization OPS leaderboard. But that's the only (or for that matter, the main) component in analyzing prospects.

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  20. Why have guys like Sale on the list? Because it's prospect evaluation, not performance evaluation. Ideally he'd have some pro experience but I can't just omit a guy based on that. He's in the organization, so he gets ranked.

    As for guys who are headed to the majors, I pretty much abide by the rule that says if a guy has MLB rookie eligibility, he's a prospect. There are a few exceptions on that, mainly for guys who are just too old (ie why Leslie Anderson isn't on the list).

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  21. Kevin and Jim,

    I kind of feel bad for you guys when a good list was made and people bash it becuase it "includes players who will be going to the majors" or becuase "some players don't have pro experience" or becuase some minor league fill ins didn't make it. I am appalled at the level maturity and knowledge by many posters. Some of the things SHandies said were totally inappropriate. I would just like to say you guys do a good job.

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  22. Back in 2005, the Rays high-A team had a 22 year old SS/2B who posted an .891 OPS and a 23 year old 3B who posted an .895 OPS. It's not a perfect comparison because the Cal League is a hitter's league, but just estimating it I'd say their adjusted numbers would look somewhat close to Wrigley's. Of course, Josh Asanovich and Aneudi Cuevas, the two players, went on to do... nothing.

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  23. My bad. So Performance evaluation isn't considered. Thanks for clearing this up for us.

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  24. Let me give you an example anon.

    For prospects, I go by something like 35% scouting, 35% results, and 30% level and age. Get it now?

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  25. nice list Kevin. i really enjoy these and can't wait to see the other two.

    The prospect lists do seem to bring out a lot of moronic comments though (cough cough Shandies).

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  26. Performance evaluation is a portion of prospect evaluation, and exactly how big a portion depends on the prospect, really.

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  27. Wrigley(High A and 62 games in AA): .270/21 HR/83 RBI/.312 OBP as a 23/24 year old.

    Bortnick(Low A and 12 games in High A); .295/9 HR/54 RBI/.400 OBP as 22/23 year old.

    So...Bortnick makes your list and Wrigley does not? I understand they are two different types of players, but nobody every notices that Bortnick was 22 the whole time he was in Low A.

    Also, this is your 2010 list. If you're going to judge guys on what they've done in previous years, why are the players such as Sale, O'Connor, Vettleson given so much stock? If you're basing this list off of this years "prospects", don't bring up stats from the past. Seems a bit biased to me?

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  28. Anon,

    This is the first year that Wrigley has hit, and Bortnick still hit better. Getting on base at a .312 clip is very poor.

    So you want Kevin to look at HS stats? Is that what you want? Jeez, some of you guys need to look up what a prospect list is.

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  29. .400 and .312 OBP is the difference between Joe Mauer and Mike Napoli.

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  30. i think this list is made up of his top 30 boyfriends. unless youve watched all 30 of these players for more then a day, you have no reason to be rating them. i do agree with the above statement if they have been in the pros, they shouldnt be considered a prospect anymore. matter of fact lets pull up some of these guys high school lines. and first year college lines. as a fan of baseball i want to see more quality players who have put in time for their respected clubs break into the pros.

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  31. So, if a player is a top prospect and signed in the 1st round top pick, all he needs is his high draft staus to get on this list since it is the high draft status that says he just might make it to the Bigs, and no performance evaluation is needed to make this list, or 35% is or 0% for those who haven't played any pro ball yet. This is Baseball, a game of opinion. I feel it is only fair for all players/prospects to be evaluated equally by performace ability, and have at least a full season of pro ball before making this list. And if stats don't matter then why disuss it?

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  32. geez yall are arguing over a talented bunch of players. i think a lot of other teams in the MLB would take any of these guys.

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  33. Actually, Jart, I was thinking just the opposite. I think the top 3 are solid but the rest are major ?s

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  34. STDR: Look at any top prospect list from anywhere. It will have guys who have played in the majors but still have prospect/rookie eligibility. High school stats hardly matter, the only time to get concerned there is if a guy with great scouting reports is struggling against high school pitching.

    Anon: Josh Sale and Drew Vettleson haven't yet played pro ball, but they are in the organization so they get ranked. Nobody said minor league stats don't matter, that's ridiculous. I take all I can into account when making these rankings. The list is neither an OPS leaderboard or a draft position list. It's a prospect ranking list.

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  35. there is goin to be a lot of moves made up and down the depth chart next season due to the salary cuts and player drops. i think whoever had the most production this year should be given a fair shot next season

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  36. I would like to submit my application to write for this website. I played legion ball and i was on the jv team for 4 years. I love baseball. I read Baseball America every day. These seem like good enough credintials around here? What do you think? Give me a chance!

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  37. Honestly, I don't recall writing that my list is somehow perfect. All I did was compile my list and give my reasons for having guys were I had them. Other people have different methods for evaluating prospects, and that's fine. I go with the way I think is best and other people go with what they think is best. The point isn't to belittle someone with a different opinion.

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  38. I have to agree about Josh Sale and Drew Vettleson. I understand they are in the organization and they get "ranked" but how can you rank them when they haven't even step foot in a game? Thats ridiculous. You rank them over guys that have played. I understand their highschool stats were GREAT, but that wasn't with a wood bat. I don't see how you can rank them without seeing that. I mean you don't just rank some random guy in the organization without seeing them play?

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  39. Also, don't get me wrong I am not saying they aren't going to be great ball players and that next year they shouldn't be ranked, but lets base that off their playing ability and not on them just getting drafted high.

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  40. Wow. I try talking some sense around here but I see it is not taken well. For most of you anonymous people, I will have to go back to the basics.

    What is a prospect list? A prospect list is a list of who the tops prospects are. Prospects are players who have a chance to make it to the majors leagues and perform. They can be rated by age, stats, and other things. Who do scouting reports matter as much as results? A person who makes a scouting report looks at the player and shows his strengths and weaknesses. Players with bad reports rarely and almost never play well in the majors. For example, a scout sees that Sale has very good bat speed. This tells him that there is a good chance he can do well becuase players in the majors need bat speed. Next they look at Bailey and see that while his results weren't good, he had the tools to do well. He just needed to get used to pro baseball.

    So this list is a list of players and how they rank based on their future value to the majors. If a 25 year old guys hits very well in the GCL league, he may not make this list because we doubt his chances of making the majors. We see his bat speed was poor which was good enough against the younger players but not good against major leaguers.

    So by looking at this list, we can see that Kevin has more faith in Torres than in Romero. Romero had better stats though, so why isn't he considered? Well, for one, Torres is far closer to the majors and a much better bet to make it there.

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  41. With Sale and Vettleson, we have (admittedly) third-hand scouting reports to go off of, but they're so clearly impressive. It's about projecting players, and I think down the line Sale will be an outstanding hitter.

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  42. Anonymous who compared Wrigley and Bortnick - If Wrigley is related to you somehow then come out and say it. Bortnick's age gets brought up all the time and it pisses me off just as much as you frankly. In fact, Kevin has brought his age up in the past as an issue.

    To be honest, what Kevin has done is rank value to the organization and that is difficult to do when you are comparing different skills and ages on one list. Where people are drafted however is a pretty good indicator how the organization at least values players but don't forget - there are two sides to the organization - the procurement side and the development side and sometimes these will wind up with differing views on a given player.

    Comparing players like Wrigley and Bortnick seems like comparing apples and oranges as one is a middle infielder and the other guy is a power guy.

    For guys that are in the organization, I would also suggest comparing them to other players in their league. I am not here to hype Bortnick (please no daddyball comments) but for two years in a row he has finished in the top 10 in numerous categories (BA, OBP, OPS, SB) for his league. His stats can be compared with others who are his age and are facing substantially the same talent.

    I wish Henry Wrigley and his family all the best in the world btw.

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  43. Kevin, nice work. I especially like the explanations in the post and the comments. Anyone who doesn't understand why you did it how you did after all that is probably just a troll.

    On Wrigley, so that everyone can see all of his numbers people are refering to, I put up a separate post. I really just don't see the argument for including him. For those who do want to add him (or anyone else for that matter), make sure to name who you would remove from the list to make room.

    I'll get my list up over the weekend, so save some of those rotten tomatoes for me!

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  44. Daniel,

    Tyler will appear higher on my list. Don't take to much thoughts to these troll comments here (not meaning Kevin and Doug). THey are obviously some trolls. Best luck to Daniel next year!

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  45. Baseball is a game of opinion, so every comment made here is just that, an opinion. There is no right or wrong here.

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  46. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  47. I think it is a accpetable list. But For me.

    Too High : Alex Cobb, Joe Cruz, Scott Shuman, Jesse Hahn

    Too Low : Jake McGee, Tim Beckham, Enny Romero, Kyle Lobstein, Braulio Lara

    Missed One : Matt Sweeney(replace Jesse Hann)

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  48. Why does everyone on this site get so sensitive when they recieve criticism. All you do is criticise guys in the Rays organization, but when you recieve any kind of criticism from people on your website, you immaturely argue back. If you're going to run a website like this, do it professionally. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if they disagree with you. Don't turn into a bunch of defensive babies when people disagree with your crappy, pointless lists.

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  49. Anonymous,

    It is time for you to shut-up and leave. You have continulously attacked the writers here and acted like an immature little child who needs to learn respect. If you decided you don't like what prospect lists are, go make your own site where you make your own crazy lists. Attacking a good list will do nothing for you.

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  50. Anonymous: I've said repeatedly in this thread that it's more than okay for everyone to have their opinion. People disagreed with my list, and I disagreed with their points about it. That's how debate works. It's not "immaturely arguing back," it's presenting my points and giving my argument as best I can.

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  51. Michael, thanks for the kind words and support, look forward to your list. If I can speak for KG, the issue for me was the personal attacks, not the criticism of his list. Why would any 2 (or 3 or 4 or 10) people come up with the same list?

    I was away for personal family reasons for a few days and came back to find the above comments. If anyone was being 'immature' it was me, not Kevin, who has responded to every comment in a civil manner. Feel free to attack me, but leave Kevin (and Jim, and Nick, etc.) out of it.

    Tomorrow I will post another discussion, this time on Vogt. Same sort of stats-based thing as Wrigley. I'm inclined to put him in, I mean he was 3rd in milb in BA, and I know about the babip, but still. Anyway, I'll post his career #s tomorrow, like I did with Henry. To me, if he can stay at catcher, the age issue is less important, I always give catchers and LHP an extra year or so, esp catchers. And the injury in 2009 cost him a year. Question is how high should he be amongst the position players? This should be fun for the production vs. potential argument.

    Thanks again Michael and Kevin, and for others, feel free to voice your opinions. And have a safe holiday weekend.

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  52. Ahhh. I wrote a long reply and it didn't go through.

    Doug, thanks. I just really appreaciate the effort here and by Kevin and think it unfair for people to attack him and act as if he knows nothing on the matter.

    I have a question for you. I (mr. maniac) am running a community prospect list over at draysbay. When it is done, could you post the results here?

    Also, yes, I am writing a list. When I am done, I will send it over to your email if you don't mind.

    Once again, I just want to say that I really appreciate the hard work and effort put forth over here. You guys do a great job.

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  53. This Thanksgiving....I am thankful for you and your website....thankful for the enlightening articles you daily provide....I check out this site several times a day....Please keep on doing what you're doing....and HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

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  54. Thanks guys. Michael, sure we'll post it, lots of knowledgable folks at DRB. Just drop us a note or mention it in a comment in case we miss it.

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